Arts Everywhere: The SAA Podcast
Arts Everywhere: The SAA Podcast
Episode 16 - Arts Everywhere - Navigating the Ever-changing Art World with Jordan Baraniecki
Jordan Baraniecki embarked on a non-linear journey for his Bachelors of Fine Art, attending three different universities across Canada. During this time, he earned scholarships and awards for his drawing skills at the University of Saskatchewan, as well as some of Canada's top art colleges. Jordan obtained his Masters from Emily Carr Throughout his travels, he nurtured a profound appreciation for introspection, philosophy, and psychology, which now serve as undercurrents guiding his artistic process and forming the foundation of his work.
"Anything is possible" - That is Jordan Baraniecki's mindset at this time in his career. That positivity is born out of a determination to be a successful visual artist working in 3D collage medium. Em Ironstar and Jordan take a deep dive into arts education, the business of having an art career, and supporting fellow artists.
Episode related links:
https://www.jordanbaraniecki.com
https://www.jillianrossprint.com
https://www.the88gallery.com
Thank you to SaskCulture, SKArts, and Sask Lotteries for your generous support.
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STARTING SEASON 2, THEME MUSIC PROVIDED BY:
Patrick Moon Bird: https://linktr.ee/PatrickMoonBird
https://www.facebook.com/PatrickMoonBirdMusic/
Kevin Power: http://www.kevinpower.net/ The Saskscapes Podcast: https://saskscapes.buzzsprout.com/
Your collective voice for the arts across Saskatchewan. This is Arts Everywhere, the Saskatchewan Arts Alliance podcast. Okay, so imagine this you, as an artist, have chosen to enter an arts program in college and a welcome seminar is held to well, welcome you all. And in that seminar, one of the instructors tells the students that there will probably be a very small percentage of you that will become professional artists. Well, that's inspiring.
Speaker 1:This episode's guest is Jordan Baraniecki, a Saskatoon-based artist expressing his creativity as a 3D collage painter, and he describes that exact scenario as part of his own education experience. And with an average dropout rate of 50%, he had to dig deep and be certain that this was his true path and, lucky for us, the recipients of his amazing work, it was his true path, which has led to attending the U of S Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, yay, nova Scotia, and a master's degree from the Emily Carr University in British Columbia. You've got to check out his website, the link to which is found in the show notes. His work varies in scale and I couldn't help but pause at each image and take in the experience as a viewer. It really is stunning.
Speaker 1:Jordan's work has been shown locally, provincially, nationally and internationally. But here's the thing one of the reasons for such a dropout rate in the arts is that teaching of arts and business is practically non-existent. That's being generous. Jordan has self-navigated his way through most of his business practices with help from others, and this conversation with Em Ironstar will speak to that. One of the things Jordan speaks to is his love and passion for supporting other artists, and that's not just token support. He puts it into practice and, as a performing artist myself, I was quite moved by his generosity and sincerity. He truly loves championing other artists' work. There's so much more I could say, but I'll leave that to Jordan. As always. Please check out the links to the show notes. It will take you to Jordan's work, as well as the work of other artists mentioned in this conversation, and they can all benefit from you becoming familiar with their work. Oh and Jordan, if you ever follow through with that vinyl wrap of your car idea, I gotta tell you I think it's brilliant. Okay, enjoy the podcast.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm really excited to be here today in Saskatoon on Treaty 6 Territory at the Second Avenue lofts at the 88 Gallery with Jordan Baronecki. Thanks for being on the podcast.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:I was really excited when you reached out with your idea to come onto the podcast and your pitch, because I found it very. Talking about fine arts and universities is something I'm really interested in and it's because when I was finishing high school, deciding what to do, I really really knew that really the only thing, the only option that I wanted to do, was to go to art school. That wasn't in question. Looking back on it years, years later, I find it hilarious that as a young person, I never even really gave myself an option of going somewhere outside of Saskatchewan, and I don't I haven't quite deconstructed that one yet, but I went and toured the U of S and I ended up going to the U of R, which I was always very happy with that decision that I made. But when you came and said you wanted to talk about different fine arts programs in different universities across the country, I was really excited to have that conversation. So yeah, if you want to maybe just take a few minutes and introduce yourself to everybody who's listening.
Speaker 3:For sure, yeah, and that's a really good point too, because right out of high school as well, I wanted to do something else other than fine arts. It was graphic design, and I was like I think, I might have to go somewhere else.
Speaker 3:And it was the first time that I kind of understood a little bit about markets and where things are like, where other places are successful in different things. So that was my first kind of taste of being like I wonder if Saskatchewan is right for me right off the starter, if it's somewhere else. But yeah, so I'm Jordan Bernacke. I'm a 3D collage painter.
Speaker 3:I've kind of always wrestled with what title I was supposed to give myself as an artist. So that's always been something that's maybe been intertwined with a little bit of my education as well, and at different points I was feeling more graphic designer, photographer or painter or sculptor, which was always something I wrestled with, but something that I've kind of come to be like 3D collage painter is good enough for me. But yeah, in regards to my education, it's been all over the map, so it's been across Canada. So I did go to the U of S for a little while at the University of Saskatchewan. Then I spent some time at three of the four colleges of art and design across Canada, so Vancouver, halifax and Calgary as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very cool. So, yeah, you came to us and had a bit of an idea about kind of what you wanted to talk about on the podcast and, yeah, I'll maybe just kind of let you introduce the conversation, for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So when I was first thinking that I wanted to do something creative as a career, my first thoughts were either in photography or graphic design and just being like a 16 or 17 year old and trying to figure out, like, okay, people get jobs and then people employed those people to do the job. So I thought, okay, well, graphic design, I'll work for a graphic design company. Or a photography. I thought national geographic. At the time I was like, okay, and then I just do, I do those things and I get paid to do those things and a lot of the companies just kind of tell me what they want, and that structure really made sense to me. But from the when I, when I decided to kind of switch over from that and do the fine arts thing, it was that was kind of it was a little unclear. And so, in regards to this podcast and kind of understanding that through arts educations across Canada in the universities that I've experienced, is that more of the kind of traditional well, not so traditional, but just some of the more creative fields that are really just set out. As you know, working with like a client, like graphic design, photography it was very cut and dry. It was just that's what you do. But with fine arts, you know there was, there was a few different avenues that were always kind of told to us. You know, it's like you, you apply for some grants and you can build the body of work and then you either like apply to show it in a gallery or you teach, or you try and do both.
Speaker 3:And I found, you know, when I was going to school, that you know that's that's what I kind of understood, just because people told me that and I didn't have enough kind of you know, bandwidth as a young individual just understanding things to be like maybe there's, maybe there's more out there. And so, you know, when things started, when I started to be like, okay, I'm going to be creating things on the fine art side of things and I'm not getting into galleries and I don't think I'm going to be able to teach, because I you know the system, that I was kind of like I don't know if I'm really I don't know if I'm ready to be a teacher or I don't even know if it's the place for me. I was like, well, what do I, what do I do? And so, yeah, so a lot of my kind of like frustrations with the fine art departments that you know it probably is.
Speaker 3:It's not just about my experience per se, but just how the fine art departments are run and, unfortunately, how limiting some of the education might be towards you know, with you know, with creativity, you can kind of do anything, but it's when it was taught to you it was more okay. Well, do you want to teach or do you just want to apply to all these shows and then just like work as a like something on the side?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that definitely resonates with me and my own experience, I think, and I think for me it was almost a feeling of so yeah, and also to clarify I have, I ended up graduating with a Bachelor of Fine Arts in printmaking, which was a wonderful experience, and then when I got out of school I did end up feeling woefully unprepared for a lot of kind of what was to come and I ended up going more towards an arts admin kind of side of things. And it's interesting now because I'm looking and I'm seeing people that are coming out of university programs that are like directly developed for arts administration. And you know, 10, 12, 13 years ago, when I was finishing up school, like that wasn't even something that was really on my horizon or on my radar at all, Because I think we had just finished one Fine Arts and Fine Arts Administration course that was just added as a partnership between the faculty of business and the faculty of Fine Arts. In my last year.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's an interesting position to be in, I think, when you're coming out of a Fine Arts program and trying to decide what your next steps are.
Speaker 3:Very true. And I remember this one example that kind of stuck with me throughout my art education, throughout all the universities, is that, yeah, one of the schools that I went to, we had a like a welcome week and we all kind of went to kind of the seminar room and stuff like that and we got this, you know kind of this welcome to the university. You know things were lively enough. But then there was also an individual that was. She was kind of you know, she was at the top of the university as well in a specific department, but she kind of laid out some of the facts and the statistics and percentages and, like she basically said, she said after graduation, for some of you students, there will probably be a very small percentage that continues being artists.
Speaker 3:It's going to be very, very small and I encourage everyone on this potrzeb of high school and try to work with you in your you know when, when she said that comment uh, as a student, you can take it two different ways. You can either be like, okay, well, I might be that small percentage that really wants to be the artist, and you know, but then a lot of other people, it's like, oh, my gosh, like am I even in the right you know, am I even in the right field for my education? Like I don't know if this is a, this is a percentage that I, you know, can, can even be at right, yeah.
Speaker 3:And um so when, when I went to my first school at the old per second school, I guess, at the Alberta College of Art and Design, from the first to the second year, more than 50% of the students dropped out. Wow, and so that was. That was something that wasn't even arts related. It was just like this is, these are students that don't want an art education. Yeah, you know, and so you know, that that that kind of happened. What, what that did for me in two different ways, was it really solidified that, like this is going to be a really difficult path to do. So if I really want to do this seriously, I need to know that these are, this is what's going to happen, like these are the percentages, this is whatever. But then it also made me really sad, because between the first and the second year, I'd made a lot of friends and I was like okay, these are very talented people, but they're not going to continue being artists.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and since I hold such high regard for creative practices in society, I was kind of thinking. I was like, well, that's a shame, you know, because that's not even you know, that's not even about, you know, being an artist. That's just about not being, you know, not being in a space that's confident enough to be like, okay, we've got, you know, we've got opportunities here and there we can, we're going to teach you these things, that the percentages change or anything like that. It was just, it was really a kind of a debilitating statement, yeah. So that's kind of where even my second love of like really just hoping that artists can succeed and trying to find the best ways that I can kind of communicate or support different artists so that that percentage becomes, you know, becomes higher, that people actually can succeed as artists in society.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, one another reason that I thought that this would be an interesting topic to talk about is that I think it ties well into some of the ongoing work that's happening at the Arts Alliance. The Arts Alliance has done a longitudinal study of the resourcing of the fine arts departments in the University of Regina and Saskatchewan for many years I think it started around 2015 and they did it and the folks at the time did kind of a look back to probably the early 2000s, and we recently completed an update to that study in 2022. And one of the one of the interesting findings from that was that there are a ton of people taking fine arts classes, but they're not necessarily pursuing it as a degree program, and so I just think you know what you're talking about speaks to that.
Speaker 3:Definitely, and I remember reading that article that you sent me to and it was it. It was so easy to figure out why people do that is because people value. People value creativity and people really want to be part of creative things, even if they're like you know, even if you're in a profession that's so far away from being an artist, it's like you know. There's the couple classes that I did take at the University of Saskatchewan. There was an athlete in there, there was a couple people that were like accounting, business, you know those kinds of things. But whenever they came in, they're like this is amazing, this is like my breath of fresh air, this is like the place that I can just, like, do something creative. I don't need to worry about my maths, my sciences. And so I kind of respected like I really respected why people outside of creative educations do take creative courses.
Speaker 3:And then I think the unfortunate part about the other side of that was that a lot of people are very aware of how, how difficult it is to get into a creative, like creative profession profession and do it full time. And I think, you know, one of one of the unfortunate parts about that, too, is that it is, you know it is unfortunately a fault within the education system because it doesn't it doesn't teach those creative people properly. That you know, there there is the value of pursuing these educations, but you're really on your own after graduation and I just found that so bizarre. But I know that you know, even talking to people outside of creative educations, it's like, yeah, we, you know, I was in a business course and I learned business, but I didn't learn how to run my own company.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:You know. So I mean it's, it's definitely, it's definitely something that's kind of bigger than the creative arts as well, but it is kind of you know, for for this conversation, it's something that's it's like well, why weren't we taught to be, you know, business owners? Because that's really what a lot of people are once they graduate. It's like we have to figure out all of these business skills on our own. Yeah, and maybe if they were, if those were integrated into the education system a little bit more, we wouldn't have such low percentages of creative people not pursuing something creative afterwards. Yeah, yeah definitely yeah.
Speaker 3:And I always found what was kind of you know, like, when I think about, when I think about the percentages of artists that don't continue being artists after education, I wonder if it would be so alarming if it was a different, you know, if it was a different profession, like what if doctors? You know we're going through these massive, these massive educational, you know feats and you know loads and loads of debt and you know so many nights of just like studying and all these these kinds of things, and then after the end of it they're like, yeah, I don't really want to be a doctor. I'm like that would be really, that would be really bad. We would have to address that pretty darn quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely yeah, when you put it like that. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a matter of perspective and that's what I always thought is that because and you know, going back to that article because so many people want to be in different creative courses, because there is such value to that in in everybody's life. But then when it's like, oh, you're just getting like a fine arts degree, like whatever you know, but it's like yo, you're getting a doctor degree, and it's like, well, of course, I mean it's so wonderful that you know doctors are going through the education that they do to pursue their educations. But then you know there is such value to the fine arts. Yeah, it's just, you know, it's been, it's just been really difficult to always like advocate for the validity of it. But I think when you put it into perspectives similar to that, it's really easy to see why it's so important for, you know, for creative people to keep being artists and whatever capacity that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah so I'm curious and what, what has your path led to, led to you doing now, like what I'm you know, like what are you how? What are you doing as far as, yeah, what? What's your, what's your education led to you to? At this point in time, for sure, yeah, so I've.
Speaker 3:I've really opened up the idea, as silly as it sounds, that anything is possible. Yeah, I think, with being Creative and having that kind of mindset, it really opens up to the idea that there's opportunity everywhere. And with a lot of you know, a lot of the fine art education I was really like I was really gifted with kind of like the freedom to do whatever, and I think that that was what was really beneficial to actually get to Kind of the art that I do. And you know, the art that I do is it's very easily accessible to others from even just kind of a contemporary fine art point of view. But what it also does for me, because I'm I'm not necessarily just, you know, wanting to apply to galleries and it's like it's just that experience. It's like I could maybe do something with a clothing brand. I could maybe, you know, get into fashion or textiles, or I could create merchandise or something With the same kind of aesthetic as the stuff that I'm doing that might be shown in galleries.
Speaker 3:And I think what's really happening to is that, even with social media and the and the, just the world being very much aware of the place for creative people, is that Lots of these, lots of different companies are really seeking out these creatives that are very, you know, traditionally trained or you know they do something that is, you know, they just paint. But it's like that painting will be beautiful on a piece of merchandise and like and as long as it aligns with an artist venture as well, it's it's really cohesive and it makes it even more accessible to what they do. And I think that's, I think that's really great. As well as that there's there's accessibility to a lot of artists these days where it's not so much what's kind of taught within the education system, where it's like, okay, you're just gonna apply to your galleries and that's gonna kind of be your avenue, right, and you're supposed to have your conversations there and you're supposed to just kind of follow that route.
Speaker 3:And I really tried. At one point I said, you know, I'm just gonna show in galleries, I just want to be in the gallery spaces, I want to have these kind of Conceptual, intellectual conversations with curators and panel discussions. And you know, I definitely see the validity of that. You know that's, that's an avenue that's really, really important within contemporary art and then alongside it as well, there's so much validity to, you know like designing sneakers, or you know like being like a mental health advocate and doing packaging for organizations that specifically help people with with mental health, like it's. You know it's. I'm finding a lot of things aren't necessarily above Another thing.
Speaker 3:it's just everything's kind of parallel and all of these different artists that are out there Can really find the places that they can situate their work in ways that really just help everything yeah you know, and then it's not weird that you know a person that does Everything other than showing in a gallery to show in a gallery like 10 or 20 years later, because it's really not about, you know, it's not really building in that traditional way, it's expanding the possibility of all of these things that allow an artist to work as a full time artist. You know, it's just it's so different, right? You know we don't, like with doctors, we don't just go to work, and you know we do operations every day and we're just operating on people. You know there there has to be so much stuff that jumps around which is really exciting. It also needs to be like nurtured, and I think what I kind of experience within my education system or education experience, was that it wasn't nurtured, that those possibilities, and I think that's what I just hope, that artists kind of understand and I think I mean we see it now like very much so that like artists can do kind of whatever, yeah, and so that's that's just such a that's such a beautiful thing for me to see, I think, just within Canada.
Speaker 3:I just hope that, like you know, I just hope that it's more, because you know we're, you know, in some ways, we are a little bit behind in regards to what we offer to artists on a scale that like, allows them to be sustainable for, like, full time careers, which is so different than, you know, united States or Europe.
Speaker 3:It's just yeah, I just, I just want to see more of it.
Speaker 3:I want to see more full time artists doing their thing and and you know, and rightfully so, you know it's because you know it's always sad to me that you know there's there's different artists that I've gone to school with and I look back and they're not practicing anymore and generally if I reach out to them, they're just like yeah, I just like wasn't able to pay the bills with it, or just like I couldn't figure out like accounting, or I couldn't figure out you know how to get people into the doors of my gallery, or you know all of those just business things.
Speaker 3:And you know, one of the things that kind of irks me is that like if I ever express that to people that aren't in the arts or whatever they're, like we could have just taken like a business course or something you know you could just take a business certificate after, and I'm like that's not, that's not the point. The point is that these business skills are integrated so that once we're out, we're like we're rocking as our small businesses, so that we can actually kind of start moving forward. In a way that's like we're very confident. We don't need more education, we can just, you know, we can start flying on ourselves or we can find those things out in ways that have really been encouraged during during our education.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think, I think what a gift that would be to have that shift in perspective for artists coming through through the education systems, to understand that this is what this is where you will end up and these are the skills that you're going to need and and you know it would. Just, I think it would give everybody such a such a leg up and I think there's a bit of a struggle sometimes to think about. You know, what, as an artist, do you do? You want to be a business, but I think, inevitably, whatever your philosophical thoughts on that are, you're going to be placed in that situation. Yeah, possibly, very, very true.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think Like one of the benefits of perspective and awareness, as well as that, say, you do just want to show in galleries, like, say, that's your thing. You're comfortable with the fact that you know you might not be doing that full time right away, but you understand that if you partner with galleries, they take A lot of the pressure off for you to market. They have their own clients that purchase your work. You know then you, you know then you don't have to do that as a business owner. You get to understand that it's being delegated to your partners that are, you know, advocating for your work, and I think the the one thing that's always what's always the trickiest is that I think, anyway, you slice it before you involve any kind of partners in your business.
Speaker 3:It's like you really got to learn even just a little bit of everything you know so that if you know you don't have galleries right off the bat. It's like you know how to market an advertised. You know like you know a little bit on how to find your clients, or you know how to. You know how to talk to people to actually make a sale, you know. Or you, you know how to set up your e-commerce website. So I always find that that's that perspective and that outlook, is really important to where it's. You are a business in one way or another. It's always, it's always good to know a little bit or to understand how you can delegate it to a, to a service, or yeah to, maybe you know, go to workshops to understand social media or something like that.
Speaker 3:And then, once you start to maybe gain a little bit more traction and you're like, okay, well, I really do want to just focus more on creating the work is, you know, I've got I've got such a demand for my work now and I have I don't have enough time to make the work.
Speaker 3:So now I understand that I can shift that a little bit. To be like now I have funds To hire an assistant, or now I have funds for somebody else to develop my e-commerce website. Or you know, now I've got All my work professionally photographed because I know the skills of it, and now I can send out those representation packages to galleries. To be like, hey, I'm making lots of sales, here's my revenue. This is what this is what my work is about. I would love to have conversations with you about the work. I've done my research on your gallery and feel that I could compliment your roster of current artists, but I also I feel in this void that I think that might kind of make your gallery even more cohesive. And then you know all of that stuff that you've learned on your own and then brought to the table.
Speaker 3:It just makes that partnership so much more easy, because then they know that you're serious about your work, you're serious about you know that whenever you like, or they know that you're serious, so that whenever you send them stuff it's like it's perfect you know, and then that partnership is so much easier, because then you also get to focus on just making the work and they're so confident in your skills that they're like Every time we have this artist show, it's like all the stuff is sold, all their pictures are perfect, all their marketing is perfect, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:And then I think what also helps too is that if you have all those skills, you also have a confidence. That's a little bit different too. So even if you're like hey, like you come to your gallery and like you know, I really don't know much about social media or whatever, but I would love if you either had somebody that could maybe like we could like contract out so that I can learn some stuff, or like do you have any tips? It's a lot easier for them to look at you and be like yeah, like you've got everything else in order. Of course, we're going to help you with social media. It's not like we need to hold your hand for all this stuff. It's like we're just we're working together to just build that one little component of your practice, yeah, yeah. But again, I think it's a lot of the stuff that needs to come back to, like the education that we receive.
Speaker 3:going through it's like you know, the few things that I got throughout my education in regards to professional practice was one course one course in one of my universities that you know taught me to professionally write my artist statement to submit to a gallery, submit to a grant. Yeah, and you know, really that's all I remember, you know nothing. Really stuck as like Damn like I remember how to do my like pricing and my accounting and my like, you know, my like reach, like outreach and stuff like that. And then, yeah, like nothing about nothing about accounting, nothing about organizing your work, nothing about professionally photographing your work, you know, and those are the things that you have to learn afterwards.
Speaker 3:yeah, which is so weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, and that was a very similar experience we had, I think in the final year. We had a. It was I can't remember what the you know the exact title of it was in the end, but it was a similar, you know, professional practice, development kind of thing and it, you know, learned, learn, similar things to what you're speaking about. And but yeah, there was. There was definitely gaps in that, for sure.
Speaker 2:And, and I think one of the things for myself as an arts administrator and a founder of an organization and also like in my professional realm, especially as I've come into this role at the SAA, a huge gap I think is financial bookkeeping, recordkeeping. I mean, I get so many questions every year from artists on how do I do my taxes? Do you know a good accountant who can help me with that sort of thing? There's just such a gap still that I don't know. I think there's probably two places where this gap can be filled, definitely at the educational level, for sure. I think that that's very important. It would almost be in my mind. I'm thinking of it as like a modernizing of the program to fit the needs of contemporary artists.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's adapt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fancy that. I think that there's also a role somewhere and this is an interesting conversation because I've been talking with a few people around the province and there's clearly a need for arts management, leadership and that's within organizations. But then this conversation has also, I think, brought to light the idea that artists need it too.
Speaker 3:Oh, totally.
Speaker 2:And we don't really have. I think I know that there's some places immediately I think I refer to them all the time, but I Creative Manitobus brings to mind, and they're very different from what we have in our province. They're an agency pretty much solely dedicated to professional development for artists and probably arts leaders as well, and I just we have probably piecemeal things like that happening, but it would be a bit amazing if we could get something like that in our province.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah, the one thing that's always been tricky for me, because I've reached out to a lot of organizations, and it is in regards to taxes and about expenses and revenue. And I know the trickiest thing for organizations is that they're like, legally they can't offer the advice, and I'm like, but can you tell me where I can find it? Like, where are these resources? And yeah, one of the tricky things too is that, like, specifically within the fine arts, is that, you know, for me personally, like I've got different kinds of business ventures that I want to do that are a little bit like, they're different and you know it's hard to talk to an accountant that kind of has handled like traditional businesses right, and hitch them the idea to be like hey, you know, I want to vinyl wrap my car with my designs that I've created my paintings with, so that my car becomes a company car, so when I drive it around I can deduct my car expenses, I can deduct my gas, and it's an advertisement, right off right. And so they have, like you know, for example, they have bits and pieces to be like okay, well, if you put, you know, a vinyl sticker on to your van or onto your car that has your business on it, then, yes, it becomes a business right off. But when it's really like, when it's a little bit more abstract, to be like I want to, I want it to be more than just being like it's a company car, it's like there's more about the advertising and stuff, and I think that's where those conversations I guess need to be a little bit more transparent. For, you know, artists that maybe are practicing for one or two years, that are that are trying to expand their practice in ways that are a little bit more creative, is to have those kinds of resources available, to be like I've got some wild ideas. And I really need to talk to an accountant that understands that these wild ideas, for me as an artist are very, are very much rooted in rational things that I want to do for my practice, and they're not just flights of fancy, they're not, they're really not weird things. They're very much these creative ideas that that a lot of, I guess a lot of fine artists have but not a lot of other, you know, professions have right. So that's, and then that's where the beauty of being like a fine artist that opens up their horizons to all these different kinds of opportunities is that they understand that those things are really important to building a practice or building a collective or building a community that's similar to them.
Speaker 3:But then it's like it's very hard to be trying to figure out all the logistics of it as well. To be like how much does like? How much is this going to cost me, you know, but then how much could this, you know, how much revenue could this bring me? You know, with that kind of exposure, and I mean that's, you know, those are the exciting things, but also such a tough thing to be like. Okay, I gotta again, I gotta figure this thing on my like. I gotta figure this out on my own.
Speaker 3:It's another thing that I have to figure out without like, without a like, a lick of idea of like where to start, you know, and that's the hope is that somewhere in the, somewhere within an education or somewhere within the first two or three years, there's those resources available to be like I got these wild ideas. Does anybody know how I can go about it? Yeah, and it's like yeah, we've got all of our instructors that know how to do it. You're going to be taking a six month business course on all these crazy ideas After graduation. You've got these two or three organizations that have accountants like on staff or they've got, you know, they've got the like, the wild public artists that have done this before and that they come in for like contracts to like mentor and talk to people. Yeah, and yeah, just like, just open it up so that you know that that creativity and these you know, and the artists that have all of these wild ideas can move them forward so that everybody sees the validity of them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the other thing is that you know, there's, with the fine art side of things, it's always a conversation about the validity of our work, where it's like, well, where does this fall in the importance of it? You know, you know it's there's. There's never, no, there's never no conversation about like, oh, a graphic designer. It's like, yeah, yeah, we know what a graphic designer does and we, we understand the importance of them. It's like, oh, photographers, we understand that.
Speaker 3:It's like, yeah, what do? Like a, an abstract painter, yeah, it's like, well, where do they fall in that? It's like it's a, it's a huge, it's a huge importance in in contemporary society to have abstract artists, you know, and then, but that's always something that's so difficult to communicate to people? Yeah, but if we open it up to and the artists feel comfortable enough to make themselves more accessible, they understand that it's. It's a kind of a two-way street. It's that the more accessible you open yourself up to and the more perspectives that you kind of open up in regards to the work that you do, you make yourself more accessible and you also allow everybody to come in and understand that you know the fine art stuff that you did for such a long time is incredibly valid to have in in society.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yes. So in the end it's, it's almost a conversation about the value of the art.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So two, two, two follow-up questions to that. Have you done the car wrap?
Speaker 3:The car wrap? No, but I've been thinking about it honestly for about a year and a half.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing I was kind of thinking as you were talking is it's almost like there there needs to be a bit of a translator between two worlds, you know, and a bit of a link of people that understand the world of fine arts and then they understand these world, these worlds of business and commerce and taxes and that sort of thing. One of the things that I'm very much advocating for is so right now in in Saskatchewan, we have the funding system through the lottery dollars, through the sport, culture and recreation, which thank you, sask lotteries.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Sask lotteries.
Speaker 2:That's why we're sitting here today.
Speaker 2:And there's an amazing component of that system that's basically called the Admin Center for Sport, culture and Recreation and they offer services. They offer bookkeeping services, they offer payroll services, there's a print shop, you know a few things like that, and what I'm really advocating for right now is an expansion of access to those services, because the arts alliance is lucky to be a beneficiary of those. We go through the Admin Center for Sport, culture and Rec for our bookkeeping services and it's been, it's been revolutionary in my understanding of the value of that service, and I cannot think of much more anything, anything else really, that would provide a level of value, kind of from from all perspectives, if we were to allow more people and organizations to access services like that, to be able to, you know, understand bookkeeping, and also from a risk management perspective, especially for funders. And then, yeah, like I, of course, it's interesting to speak with you today because I'm definitely always coming at things from, like, an organizational perspective. But yeah, it's, it's equally as important and valid for the individual artist.
Speaker 3:Yeah, very true, yeah, and I think that that's a really good point.
Speaker 3:The integration of different kinds of companies when it comes to yeah, to fine artists and creatives alike, is that I always find that In different kinds of professions there's a language, right, and so when you have a fine artist that comes in and ever talks to people that are not in any kind of creative realm or whatever, it's like a different language.
Speaker 3:And then vice versa, right, like a bookkeeping or like. The first time that I reached out to an accountant, I was like hey, like, can you tell me a little bit about accounting? They're like yeah, like spreadsheets and revenue and generate this and like plus or minuses and the excels, and I'm like what are you talking about? Like I don't even know what you're talking about and I think that's, you know, that's kind of funny to be like okay, well, there's all these different kinds of languages in regards to different professions, but then I think the benefit is it's like if we all, just if we all look at these possibilities and are open to the idea of, like, learning new languages, it just opens everything else up, you know. So it opens, and it's not just about, you know, like fine artists. You know getting excuse me different kinds of business skills to understand that, but it's also about different kinds of organizations understanding these creative ways that artists think you know that opens you up to looking at things differently.
Speaker 3:You know, and I think that's the benefit of those integrations, right, is that you kind of see even some of the like shortcomings of your own business. You know, like I mean, I always found that artists are so hard on themselves. I don't know if lawyers are hard on themselves. I don't know if doctors are hard on themselves Like we are. We might be, but maybe we should all get in a room and talk about how, how much we doubted like ourselves and and those kinds of things, and just see where everybody's at. But, yeah, like, in regards to having the possibility to look at things differently and learn those kinds of new languages to progress everybody forward, I find that just invaluable, right. Like it's like, yeah, like I'm a big basketball fan and so a lot of the new stuff that's happening in the NBA this year with these like in season tournaments.
Speaker 3:It's not just about basketball, right, it's about the like every, every basketball team created a new court that's designed differently. They have two or three different kinds of jerseys. They reached out to all different kinds of artists to be involved in the design of that stuff, right? So it's even just about opening up the possibility of something that is like sort of different but could really benefit from creative people being involved, so that there's some kind of like holistic, like research, of like creativity or like just new things that are talked about.
Speaker 3:One of the ones that I actually really really liked was the Phoenix Suns in basketball. They created a jersey, I think a couple years back, that really highlighted the like indigenous land, and so there was like little references on the jerseys for that stuff, and then the Phoenix Suns did a huge advertising campaign to really explain a lot of that stuff on the jerseys. So you have these beautifully designed jerseys, you have history that's kind of tacked onto it, you have awareness of cultures, you have all of these different kinds of things that would not necessarily be part of just a jersey design, right. But if you really get the authentic artists in on these kinds of designs, it opens up. You know, it opens up the possibility of like a jersey really like encouraging, teaching people things that are new, and that's, yeah, I think that's where some of those integrations within those different companies can be huge. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was watching like broadcast news the other night, which I don't do super often I mostly watch like morning news kind of thing on cable TV and I was. It was kind of the half an hour news before the more lengthier news and I was like sitting there thinking, man, if arts and culture got as much coverage in our media as sports, you know it would be a very different world. And I think that's an interesting conversation because I also enjoy watching and partaking in various different you know sports and I think it's interesting too because there's often a juxtaposition between arts and sports and a lot of you know but there are a lot more integrated, I think, than folks realize. But that's an interesting perspective to be able to kind of leverage some of the importance that sports and athletics hold in our society and integrate art into that, into meaningful ways to show people that you know they're, maybe they're it's an in.
Speaker 3:It is. It's an into art for sure. Yeah, absolutely yeah, it's a great opportunity and yeah, I guess it goes two ways. It's about organizations being open enough to have those conversations and to work with those artists that maybe think a little bit differently, but then also artists that understand that, opening up their practices that are incredibly precious to them.
Speaker 3:You know, I mean there is. I've had conversations with artists where they're like I would never want my painting on a t-shirt or whatever, and I'm like I understand that, I understand where you're coming from where it's like I've put like my heart and soul into this painting and then I'm turning it into a commodity. You know, but when I think about, if you think about your art as a business, you know your painting is quote, unquote a commodity. Right, it's something that somebody buys, it's an item, so you do have. What I say to those artists is that you do have. You know, your paintings are above a t-shirt design and that is fair, right, like, it's like you know those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:But if you think about, well, say, we go back in art history, you know paintings that were also prints, right, it's like people were like oh well, it's a painting and it's like, why would you ever devalue your painting with prints? It's like because it's an accessibility thing. It allows, you know, if you run a print thing for you know even 50 to 100, you have 100 more people that get to enjoy your painting. You also generate a new revenue stream for yourself from one painting that you've done. Your painting. Still, it's not devalued in a way that it may be used to, or maybe our perspective of it was like before, before my time, or whatever. But I just think of you know, I think of a lot of artists that I admire now, where I'm, like man, I don't have $12,000 to purchase their painting, but I'm so glad that they're creating these mini paintings because those are, you know, 200 bucks. 300 bucks, it's like that's something that's affordable to me and it's also affordable to you know, 250 other people, because they made 250 mini paintings, right yeah?
Speaker 2:Well, this is a conversation you probably might not have wanted to get me started on.
Speaker 2:But yeah so I find this very interesting. This is always something that appealed to me about printmaking and I think that that's a convert, like the idea of also fine art. Printmaking versus reproduction was something that I don't think even a lot of artists necessarily talk about, and definitely in the art buying market is something that's not understood quite well, I think, especially here in Saskatchewan. Yeah, there's some amazing folks who just recently moved to Saskatoon who I had the I had the chance of having going to their studio Jillian Ross and Brendan Cope's yeah, Cope.
Speaker 2:Steak. They moved to Saskatoon, like in the last year or two, and Jillian's like an amazing master printer, and so we were having some really great discussions last weekend about the value of creating, you know, a series of fine art prints. So you know, it's not something that we're, you know, hitting copy and reproduce and print on a machine, it's still something that you know there's a. There's this incredible amount of craft and art that goes into making these works, and history and technique and skill.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, yeah, and definitely, yeah, it's, it's, but yeah, that has always something that that has been something that's drawn me to print and to fine art.
Speaker 2:Print is the idea that it can be accessible. Yeah, and I always thought of the idea too, and I think this, I always thought the idea of that. You know, way back in the day and around the time of the Industrial Revolution, we were kind of you know, we're running in parallel times I always thought, with the idea of the invention of the printing press and movable type and everything, I always, I always thought that we're, we're in the same type of era, but it's, it's in a digital realm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so, yeah, it's a, it's endlessly fascinating to me, I think, the idea of and now we're, now we're even in a different space where, yeah, I think some of you know to tie it back to what we were talking about before where artists have different opportunities and it's it's interesting to be, I think, an artist now, where you're navigating different ideas of preciousness.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally, yeah, yeah, definitely. Oh, my goodness. And I have, I've, such a deep level of respect for printmaking. First and foremost, when I was at the U of S, I took a couple of courses before I went to to ACAD and it was the only course that I was there till four in the morning. For it it was just like okay, so I have to stand beside this plate in this bath and I got to brush it a little bit so that it doesn't erode in a certain way, and then I have to paint the smaller areas to make it a little bit higher, and I'm like sitting there for like three or four hours, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, and then I have to print it, and then I have, and you know what.
Speaker 3:I have such a deep respect for Gillian as well too, because I was actually talking to an artist about her last week, just in regards to what she's, what she's done as a printmaker herself, but also the company that she's been able to keep when she, when she left you know, saskatoon, you know, and being part of, like you know, william Kentridge's work for such a long time is that she has such a wealth of knowledge that if you're in Saskatoon, you know, there's only a few people that are like that right, and so having the opportunity to be around a person that has that kind of knowledge like Gillian, and to to actually share what she's learned and for other people to really understand, almost like, the validity of like printmaking and how like and how labor intensive it is, but then also thinking about, yeah, like printmaking in the way that you know, that does kind of fit somehow in like the contemporary world of being like reproductions don't necessarily devalue different things, but you know, like there's these different lines that are kind of like, kind of amalgamating, or you know, there's different things.
Speaker 3:There's conversations that are always kind of leading something forward to, to some sort of change, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so it's amazing for that as well. And then, yeah, just the possibility for new things to come about from, yeah, having conversations about how accessibility can push creative ventures forward and and those people in those professions, right, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Fantastic conversation so far. What do you think? How can we make some of these, how can we be catalysts for some of these changes?
Speaker 3:Yeah for sure. So I mean, within the education system, that's always, that's always tricky, right, because it's like, well, how are we going to, how are we going to change the education system? But I think I think the I think the easiest way would be to to create a more open conversation about the possibility of how, like, how beneficial fine art courses are, how beneficial artists that come out of these fine arts educations are, because I think what it is is that a lot of artists think differently about the world around them and then they try to convey that in their artwork. Like you know, obviously there's more to it, but I think, in regards to art, it's it's opening up a conversation about something, about the world around, and then, yeah, so it's always about.
Speaker 3:It's always about strengthening the validity of that, as the reason that people go through these fine arts educations is that people see the world differently and they're trying to figure out how to best convey that, and that's why they go through the education, and then I think, yeah, and then I think the Perspective is always a good thing.
Speaker 3:So I mean, even just bringing awareness to the people that have already done Things that are quite extraordinary out of their education, that maybe are a little bit different than different things that are traditionally taught, I think that's always great because you can, you can see the example.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it's that's the artist that's actually doing it. Right, you know, those are the people that did go through the fine arts education. They were just a painter, but now they're like creating murals, now they're working for, like you know, they're doing vinyl raps for BMW, or they're, you know, or they're creating a soccer jersey, or you know, you know, they're working with a mental health organization and they're, you know, or they're they're working in hospitals and all of the waiting rooms are just beautifully painted, or something like that, right, you know? So, having those examples and that accessibility around, to Understand that a perspective can change of what you can get out of your fine arts education is really really great too. Yeah, so I think it's it's nurturing that kind of idea while people are in school and then and then somehow supporting artists the first couple years in different ways to get to those different points or to get to those different avenues where they can kind of almost Give back in a certain way.
Speaker 3:Yeah you know, and so, yeah, for myself, I think you know it was really interesting about my education is that I didn't start off kind of just being like I just want to paint. I don't, I just want to draw. I was like I want to be a graphic designer, I I want to work with different companies, or I want to photograph. I want to see the world, I want to bring awareness to the world around me through photographs. So I had that, I had that mindset right away that there was something about like, either working together in a company was really interesting to me or With photography, I always thought it was like, well, I'm behind the lens because I really like that.
Speaker 3:I like showing other things around the world and then taking that same kind of perspective into a fine arts education to understand that my philosophy about being either like in service to others, showing people other things, you know, like I, I very like I always tell people I'm kind of an artistic middleman to the work that I create because it's just allowing people to have an experience that that might mean something. You know, that's, that's my hope, right? You know, I, I very much enjoy the process of making work and that's kind of what I feel for myself as an artist is that the process is for me and then the quote-unquote product is for everybody else. Yeah, but I feel like it's a really healthy way to be, like there's so much enjoyment to me just making the work for myself, and then there's the possibility of bringing everybody else together around something else.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's, um, it's, it's, yeah, just it really opens you up to Inviting people that maybe really want to work with you as well. Yeah, and then you know if it's, if it's something a little unconventional, it's just being like, well, he's done that before you know, so he might be open to it, you know, or you know, because I think that's the thing is that if you're you're open to those things, you bring people in that maybe are slightly thinking about those create creative things that they want to do within their organization. You know, yeah yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting thing, you know, even thinking about talking to younger people about career options or, you know, thinking talking to people who are talking to kids who might be have an interest of thinking. You know, oh, they're. You know they, maybe they really love art and they really or they love, you know, whatever it is that they're passionate about as a young person, and that would be something interesting to highlight stories of people who have taken those journeys. I think, and you know, different ways, I it was an interesting conversation I had with my mom recently I'm talking about, you know, because they were when I said you know, I'm going, I'm gonna go take art. You know that was they were very supportive but it was also like, well, what are you gonna do?
Speaker 2:Yeah and I think a lot of people get asked those questions and it's a very valid question because you're investing a lot of your money and a lot of your time and often that means for most people that means taking on a significant amount of debt to get your education and it's an it's an investment in yourself. And how are you going to? You know, those are all questions people get asked and the it was an interesting conversation with us because it was like and as I've talked to people, it's kind of about my journey through arts administration and kind of where that's taken me. It's. I Do feel that in more Subtle ways, through my education I was equipped to do the things that I'm doing nice but If it could have been, if it could have been more explicit, if it could have been more intentional.
Speaker 2:I think that there that would serve you know the people going taking, taking the courses, taking the programs there's parts of your personality that are very much about support and nurturing Something that you find of value.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I think that's. I Think that's beneficial, because when we think of artists, right, it's like, you know, an artist just an artist is not just an artist that makes their art right. It's like there's different personalities within, like with all of these different artists, I mean I've never seen more walks of life In my life. Then, when I was in art school, yeah, I was like there's so many different people here, and when I think about how many different people there are, it's like there's so many different perspectives, there's so many different ways that people act around themselves, act around themselves, act around people, act in their studios that that really becomes About who.
Speaker 3:Who are you as a person as well. That could really, that could really help situate yourself in different creative ventures. That Could, like you could see yourself excelling. Yeah, you know, because then it's yeah, because then it's not just about you know, we'll go back to traditional.
Speaker 3:It's a doctor, right, it's a doctor that you know Does surgeries, right, and it's like okay, well, we know that your, your hands are perfect. You know you're gonna make your incisions great, but then it's like Are you very much Like, are you a person, like a people person? Are you able to, like you know, help people, be calm with what you're just about to do, right? So I guess that's the thing when, when I think about my education as well, is that immediately from you know some of those comments that first happened with at a cat, where it's like you know there's it gonna be a very small percentage of you that actually continue doing this. When I heard that, I was like I'm excited because I really want to be part of that and as I got older and I recognized what that also does for people that are very scared about that percentage is that they don't continue, I'm like that's terrible, like I really hate that and and.
Speaker 3:A lot of my jobs outside of being an artist have been Service jobs, you know. So when I think of being in service for other people, that's something within the creative realm where I'm like, yes, I love creating my work, I love doing that as a process, but I'm like I really want to see more artists. I really want to see more artists continue doing the stuff that they do. And so, in regards to where we are at the 88 here, my role as a, as a business director, is obviously to help Cajon, the owner of the 88, make different kinds of business moves in in regards to running a gallery. But obviously, when artists are part of our gallery, I'm very much there in support of their practices. So it's like, well, what do you need help with?
Speaker 3:you know, like Anything right. Is it shipping? Is it like advertising? Is the social media? Is it like proper lighting, is it hanging?
Speaker 3:You know, and I've done a lot of different jobs that have allowed me to To learn those skills too. You know, I've worked in galleries, I've worked in arts organizations, I've worked in, like you know, it's just, it's it's almost mind-boggling how many things I do when I really think about it, and it's it's never a flex. It's always like I didn't learn all of these things in art school. So I have to go find out these things, and since I Don't have enough funds to be a full-time artist, I need to do those things. So why not make it? You know, why not learn as much as I can from these different organizations so that if I ever start something on my own or if I start something with other people, I'm Very much well equipped to provide that advice and information to people?
Speaker 3:That was either what that was deprived from my education and was also deprived of people that aren't practicing art anymore. And that's always the thing that, just like aches, it's like it's just like you went to art school because you're an amazing artist and you had something to give to the rest of the world and you don't do it anymore. And it's not because you're not a talented artist, is because different parts of the system have deprived you from the possibility of doing this full-time, and you know that's, that's terrible because it's, you know it's not just about artists, it's about anybody that feels deprived of their like, their passions, you know. So I just it's yeah, it's my second love to to advocate for for artists and to to provide them like business advice that I've learned, that I've struggled through For years trying to figure these things out, you know, to hopefully see more talented artists in In the world. You know amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is there anything that we like skipped on or that you would like to ask?
Speaker 3:No, no, I think okay, yeah, cool that was awesome.
Speaker 1:Thank you, you're welcome. The next episode of arts everywhere is coming soon, so keep checking the Saskatchewan arts Alliance website and their social media pages for more information and if you're listening to the podcast through your favorite podcasting app, don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you don't miss a single episode. The arts everywhere theme music is composed by Saskatchewan musician Patrick Moon Bird, dancing to lo-fi from his album entitled 2021. Check out the show notes for links to Patrick's music. The Saskatchewan arts Alliance would like to thank our funders. Sask culture and Sask arts, both of whom benefit from lottery ticket sales through Sask lotteries Proceeds from Sask lotteries fund cultural organizations all across the province, and we wouldn't be able to do the work we do without your support. See you next time.
