Arts Everywhere: The SAA Podcast
Arts Everywhere: The SAA Podcast
Episode 22 - Arts Everywhere - Re-imagining Governance with Roberta Cross
Join SAA ED Em Ironstar and Roberta Cross for a lively discussion which dives into how the SAA is "Reimagining Governance" and the process that facilitated change. Em and Roberta talk about implementing honorarium payments for board members and bylaw changes that have critically shifted governance practices at the SAA. Governance and bylaw work might sound boring, but this episode is anything but!
Links mentioned in this episode
www.growsolutions.ca
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STARTING SEASON 2, THEME MUSIC PROVIDED BY:
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Your collective voice for the arts across Saskatchewan. This is Arts Everywhere the Saskatchewan Arts Alliance podcast. Her mother, charlotte, was a creative in her own right. Her dad, john, was a kooky visionary. Together, they gave this episode's guest the gift of practicality.
Speaker 1:So what has Roberta Cross done with this gift? Political and international degrees, a diplomat with the federal government for 11 years, live in Cuba and Spain and, while you're there, earn a business degree and then eventually come back to Saskatchewan, where you get to offer insight and hands-on mediation and guidance. And the Saskatchewan Arts Alliance has been the beneficiary of Roberta's gifts. Roberta has amazing listening skills and with those skills, she inspires us all to imagine something new and then figure out the practical. Roberta and M Ironstar discuss how the Saskatchewan Arts Alliance found a new vision of governance and, with Roberta as a facilitator, exceed expectations of what that looks like today. If you have a clear picture, not based on the same old same old, but based on what could be change can come quickly. This episode celebrates just how far the Saskatchewan Arts Alliance has come in its governance.
Speaker 3:Okay, cool Podcast time, podcast time. Let's see, I feel like we've been trying to do this for a while, I know. Yeah, hi, roberta. Hey, so nice to be talking to you. Yeah, really really good to have you as a guest on the podcast. And yeah, I was trying to kind of thinking back on my drive over here. I think it's probably maybe getting close to about two years since we met.
Speaker 2:I think so, I think so, and it was right at the tail end of COVID. And yeah, I think we talked or emailed and then we actually saw each other at Lugo, and it was like oh my gosh, yeah, that's right there was this moment? Where is it okay to hug?
Speaker 1:Can we hug?
Speaker 2:each other. And I think we did. I remember that really well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, time flies.
Speaker 2:I know, and it's been a beautiful time, yeah, yeah, a really rich time, so I'm grateful for it.
Speaker 3:And I'm happy to be able to talk about it. Yeah, thanks for having me. Happy to be here in Saskatoon on Treaty 6. It's you know I'm back and forth quite a bit these days and it's always great to get to spend some time in Saskatoon. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And so we're here at my house.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And specifically, this house is on the land of the Round Prairie Métis community who lived in this neighborhood. Like now it's a neighborhood, but on this land up until the 50s.
Speaker 3:Amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they actually had their homes, like what is now a couple blocks from here. Yeah, and this was like foraging and pasturing area. Wow, that's good to know. Yeah, I think when you can get to know exactly who you're grateful to and for for where you live, it's a really powerful experience.
Speaker 3:I like to share that, thank you. So for the folks listening out there maybe just want to give a little bit of an introduction to yourself and, kind of, maybe we can get into why we're chatting, right, okay?
Speaker 2:The big picture, the embarrassing big picture. Okay, well, I grew up in Saskatoon. My parents were John and Charlotte Cross, and I only say that because my Cree friends have taught me how to make an introduction like that and that my family and my background does matter like that and that my family and my background does matter. And my mother was a very practical person, very intelligent woman, very outspoken, very funny, and my dad was a real sort of visionary, a little kooky but had, like big visions, and so I'm always grateful to them because I feel that they've given me like this weird mix of seeing the big picture, like in being really creative but also like being really practical, of like how are we going to get there? And I think, when we can look back at our ancestors and say, wow, I inherited something good and also leave behind the stuff you don't need anymore, right, I think it's good. So that's kind of. That's sort of what I bring into the world Other things too. And so I did a political studies degree, an international studies degree, here at the University of Saskatchewan, and then I joined the federal government. I was a diplomat Most people don't know what that is and I did it because I thought there'd be a lot of parties and dancing and there were but there was also a lot of really important work in trying to understand people of different cultures, people who speak different languages, people have different points of view, and then trying to help explain what they need or want to other people who may not normally be in contact with them or understand them.
Speaker 2:I lived in Spain and I was really, really fortunate. It was a good career and I met a lot of fascinating people and I, yeah, and it was a really creative profession and a difficult one too, but I'm grateful to have had it, and I did manage to spend a lot of time with politicians and in political offices at a very young age like I was 23, and sitting in a minister's office and basically biting my nails, wondering what the hell am I doing here. So I learned quite a bit about how government works and how the letters get written and how the decisions get made, because I was part of that for a long time. So, and then that was a great career, but then I decided I'd rather work for myself, so I did a business degree in Spain and then ended up coming back to Canada.
Speaker 2:I led a non-profit for a while and then my mom felt sick and she was here in Saskatoon and I wanted to be with her. So I came home and mostly have been doing projects like this one, this beautiful one that we've been working on, as a person who's self-employed, and so I've done a lot of mediation and facilitation and writing, and you know, when people have changes or challenges or conflicts, even I kind of like to come in and sort of say, hey, you know, could we see this differently, could you see a new perspective? You know, how could this be different? And again going back to my parents, like imagining something new but also figuring out the practical part, so anyway, so that's kind of long-winded but, that's great.
Speaker 2:That's my piece. Yeah, and I also, here in Saskatchewan, have a special relationship with some traditional land which I hold for reconciliation. So the company I have, which is called Grow Solutions, is technically a social enterprise because all the profits go to support that land and that project and protecting and restoring that land on the South Saskatchewan River Amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So yeah, we were kind of the way our circles intertwined was at the time Tara Jansen, who was at the Ramey and also on the Saskatchewan Arts Alliance board, right when I had kind of first started at the Arts Alliance around HR, because as a new executive director at the time I was feeling kind of completely lost around around what to do with, uh, you know, job description development and making sure to get it right. Um, and so she introduced us and that was kind of, I think, one of our, our first projects working together after we had gotten a increase in operational funding at the Arts Alliance to be able to figure out what this job of research lead was going to look like.
Speaker 2:Absolutely right. Yeah, and I mean Tara and I have known each other a long time, so it's always nice to be introduced, because then it's based on relationship and that's what matters to me most Like it's based on relationship and that's what matters to me most.
Speaker 2:And what I'm always interested in is not like, like, what do you really want to do? I mean, I was so curious about you as a person, as a professional, in this new role. Like it was so interesting to me to think and imagine what you were going to do with this budget and how you were going to envision the this budget and how you were going to envision the organization growing and how it was going to support you. So for me, it was so exciting to have those conversations with you and listen to you, yeah, and then be able to reflect back to you oh well, I hear you going in this direction, or what if we tried this?
Speaker 2:And so, really, we just had an extended, in-depth conversation about what does the SAA need and with what you have now, and like what you needed to really thrive and enjoy this work and your own skills, which are like hefty and wonderful, you know what was really going to fly. And so I was thrilled by that and I mean I'm really thrilled where you've taken it. So I was thrilled by that and I mean I'm really thrilled where you've taken it and I think the SAA to have an in-house full-time researcher is so significant. Focused on Saskatchewan, focused on the arts ecology here, dedicated to really the goals and the purpose of the SAA, and I think it's tremendous and I think Arianna's, you know I mean a year in like it's amazing what's happening and I'm really proud to have been part of those conversations early on.
Speaker 2:And like just hearing you know, okay, what could work right, like to almost play a little bit and be a little artistic with how could this work? And even writing the job description was an artistic project. Project like what do we want to say and how do we want to talk about it yeah, how to?
Speaker 3:how to set the tone for what we want, how we want to work right?
Speaker 2:yeah, who do we invite in right? Yeah like I mean, maybe that goes back to being a diplomat and organizing a lot of parties. But, yeah, a lot of situations like how do we make this welcoming for people? How do we invite someone in? That's really going to thrive and enjoy this environment right.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I think I was. Actually. We had a staff meeting this morning and I think now, having this conversation, just reflecting back on Arianna, and having the research lead position, I think one of the most exciting things about it is the ability to be responsive. That in previous you know iterations of research at the Arts Alliance, it was always very focused because it was based around projects, project funding, specific objectives with different you know institutions, which is great. It's its own thing, you know. No, no shade to that at all. But what's been, I think what's really unique now is that we have the ability to respond to arising needs from the community, from the funders, from government, that we're not locked into something specific necessarily, even though there's long-term priorities and that sort of thing that we can. Now the economic impact report, for example. That wasn't really we really wanted to do it, but we were able to kind of shift things around and reprioritize and say this is important.
Speaker 2:Now it's about responsiveness, yeah, and I would even say having a full-time, permanent research lead means, then, that Jessica can focus on listening to the membership and hearing what they have to say and being able to respond to what they're asking for, because a lot of what's beautiful about what's happening with the SAA right now is that it's responsive to the needs of the membership.
Speaker 2:It's responsive to the government's needs for information and knowledge to make good decisions, and so, by having the in-house research strength means that you can focus your outreach and your communications on your membership and hearing and then saying, okay, we heard you, here's what we have in response, and I think that's an exciting change because, you're right, collaborative research is gorgeous, but being able to respond to your membership is fundamental, and it's essentially who you are. You're a membership driven, not driven, I mean, you're a membership organization, and unless that's a direct, multi-directional conversation with your membership, it gets a little boring. Yeah, for real. Yeah, so, and I just want to say jessica like brings so much to the table too. Yeah, and that was an exciting part of the conversation early on is how many people she knows and the depth of her knowledge about who's who in this province. Yeah, so, and to see her have the time and space to really flourish with that knowledge. Yeah, I think it's an exciting thing too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, with that knowledge, I think is an exciting thing too. Yeah, and that was another part of the work that we started off with in bringing the digital communications collaborative position and Tia, who you will have heard of in a previous episode. So, yeah, really it's been just the growth of the capacity and the team at the SAA and kind of building on foundations. It's been, it's been really exciting and it's it's um, so heartening, I think, to kind of watch it form and, and you know, the longer we work together, it's yeah, I think, I think we're it's I couldn't ask for a better team.
Speaker 2:No, you really couldn't. It's fantastic, right, and it's always wonderful to have someone who stands a little bit outside of your life, in your circle, who has a little bit more experience, and can just say, hmm, what about this? Yeah, hmm, what about that? I heard you say such and such three weeks ago, and to just remind us where we're at, because when you're starting something new, find us where we're at, because when you're starting something new and being brave as you have, it gets a little disorienting sometimes, and I think it's a really powerful human experience to have someone else just say hey, I see you and here's the things I see you doing, and let's keep going. So that's how I kind of see this unfolding. Again, I find consultants that come in and go oh, I have the answer to be really offensive because they don't like. Everybody knows their own business and everybody knows their own life, and so I just enjoy being welcomed in to sort of observe and say, hey, what about this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think, um, you know, as an artist and as someone who, I think, operates in a visual and auditory space a lot of the time, I found it's a really interesting way of working, to be working through conversation.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and we also had visual moments, do you remember? Yeah? There was a final moment where we were like okay, what does the research lead need to look like? And it dawned on me to ask you could you draw a picture, could you make a visual of what this person needs to be and needs to do? And and bam that that coalesced the whole story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if I could find it, maybe we'll try to find a way to put it into the show notes, because it's kind of fun it was amazing, it was really really great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, yeah, and I I think it's true like, as artists, if we can't put our thoughts and our projects into our medium, then we need to spend some more time thinking about them. Yeah and um. So when you were able to produce that work of art in such a short period of time, it was clear to me that you knew exactly and felt exactly what the right way forward was.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that was a great moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, although I have to say I do use that visual technique with, like more sort of corporate clients and you wouldn't believe the looks on their faces when I get out the pencil, crayons and the pastels and I'm like, okay, we're going to draw what the final result of this project is going to be and everyone's like. But then I keep like, I keep those pictures and.
Speaker 2:I pull them out, like during the process, and I remind people visually of what they imagined. And it is amazing the results of that and those people with the kind of look on their faces start to think oh no, there is some consistency here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's in, everybody it is.
Speaker 2:And it transcends divisions. Yeah, so when you're in a situation where you're trying to determine an outcome and there's some conflict or some challenge, if you can look at the image of it, the image of where you need to be at the end, you don't get so tangled up in the words or your own hang-ups or how you feel you need to be right or how you're disagreeing with the other person. You can actually just get absorbed in the shape and the color and what you remembered that you'd visualized. Right, so yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think a lot of the kind of meat and potatoes about what we want to talk about today is around kind of the next kind of piece or chunk of work of initiative that we did together, work of initiative that we did together and that was around, I would say, reimagining what governance at the SAA looks like, which was really exciting, I think, probably one of the most exciting things that's happened at the SAA since I've been there for the what?
Speaker 3:two and a half years or something and this was something that was brought forward as a priority by the current by Tara, Tara and Alejandro and people on the board at the time. Yeah, and it was needed. It was definitely a needed piece of work in order to, I think, make sure that the SAA was the organization that it needed to be for the arts community.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think a lot of people think, oh, governance, that's boring. Right, and it can be boring, but if you see it as how do we relate to each other and how do we make decisions and how do we make good decisions together? And then also like imagining how you want to make decisions together, because I think a lot of governance is like they say it has to be like this, yeah, and when we started these conversations, there were a lot of people saying, well, you can't pay honorariums, you've got to have this and you have to do that. Saying, well, you can't pay honorariums and you've got to have this and you have to do that. And you can probably tell by now I'm the kind of person where you say that to me. I'm like, oh really.
Speaker 2:So when we dug into it, there were actually a lot of examples of people not doing those things and those were just old habits that had come from building nonprofit boards based on a copy of corporate boards in the 70s and it had never been updated. And people just get into that habit and then they think that's how it has to be. So I mean, one of the gifts again of having lived overseas and lived in other cultures is I'm always like well, does it really have to be like that? So and again, I'm going to go back to how like important responsiveness is and how this, like the whole process, has been about relationship, because Tara Jansen and Alejandro Romero were on the board and they were like Alejandro wasn't quite there yet.
Speaker 3:Oh, wasn't he Not quite? Oh, that's right too, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's right too. Yeah, so, but I have to say his name because he played a significant part very quickly, and Tara's point was I'd like us to pay honorariums to board members to reflect the fact that artists are working hard. We have to respect artists and their time. We're an organization that's about valuing artists, and corporate boards pay people to be on boards and we're taking people's time and we're taking people's effort. Why wouldn't we do that?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think we're, if I remember correctly, where this started is.
Speaker 2:That came to you and then we started working together and then the board passed like a kind of a preliminary sort of we're willing to look at honorariums and a few other changes and gave you the mandate to go forward and start to explore some of these ideas and see how they could change and improve the work of the board.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so then I joined you and then we interviewed eight people. Yeah, and there's some really fascinating people we talked to. Yeah, we talked to people who'd been on the board and who'd left and they were really, and all these interviews were anonymous so that people could be frank, right, and people talked about, you know, what had been challenging and what hadn't worked for them. We talked to some of the thought leaders in this province and we have some real powerful people, right. So people thinking about nonprofit governance and arts governance and arts governance we talked about to some people who are doing thought leadership in different areas of accessibility and welcoming and making sure that all kinds of people are present at the board table, because really the goal was to have a board that absolutely reflects your membership and your membership is wonderful. Your membership and your membership is whoa like wonderful and all from all corners and representing all kinds of people.
Speaker 3:So the epitome of intersectionality right so, um, we came back with a report, right, yeah, so we presented that report and um I I have to say, though, those conversations were fascinating yeah, they were really they were. That was a really um, important part of kind of how we came to you know the report and and getting to kind of build those connections and spend that time with those folks was like really I learned so much.
Speaker 2:I did too. Yeah, I did too, and I learned a lot from you and I learned a lot from every person that spoke. Yeah, and again it like for me, it just really opened my thinking about what could happen here and what are people thinking about and how could we make that practical. How can we actually put that to work? Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was fun and I really enjoyed that. Like we did it together, like we did those interviews together, and I took, like I did, transcription so we had people's direct quotes, because I really believe in that. Like you have to listen to exactly what people are saying, and I think I asked the questions and you had the freedom to listen and ask additional questions. So it was also good because we were both there to really listen to the people who were sharing, and I thought that was respectful. And then the other respectful part was we gave everybody an honorarium for their time. We weren't like, oh, can you do this for me?
Speaker 2:No we were like you have something to say, we need to hear it and we want to share with you, so I felt that that was an important part of the process too. Yeah, set the groundwork, yeah right, yeah Well, and then right. And then it was like well, that's an easy sidestep to say well, board members need honorariums too.
Speaker 2:And we found that there are other organizations paying honorariums to non-profit board members. Yeah, yeah, and we also found there was no rule against it. Yeah, even though people think there is one, there isn't one Technically, no, no. And I will never forget the look on the lawyer's face when we shared the bylaws with him eventually, and he just looked completely perplexed but he couldn't find anything wrong, like he'd never seen what the SAA's new bylaws looked like.
Speaker 2:He looked completely perplexed and yet sort of encouraged and you used the word heartened Like I wonder if he went home thinking, wow, things could be different. So yeah, so we. So I think what happened was we presented that report, Everybody on the board gave it some consideration, and one of those changes happened right away, which was the honorarium, introducing an honorarium. Do you want to explain how that works?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we were able.
Speaker 3:So one of the recommendations that came out of the report was supported.
Speaker 3:Kind of what we wanted to do and what we expected going in was that, you know, we wanted to value people's time with an honorarium, and so we proposed a bylaw amendment at our 2022 AGM. Basically, that would allow for that to occur, so we could give board members honorarium payments for the meetings that they attend, members honorarium payments for the meetings that they attend, and basically what ended up happening is this was a bylaw amendment in that way, but it's related to a policy, so it's related to a board member honorarium and expenses policy that was also approved at the time and it basically just outlines the details about, you know, the amount of the honorarium, the you know the frequency of when it's paid, how it's processed, like all the kind of nuts and bolts about how it works, and those are definitely like. All of this information is on our website and we'll link to it because we want to freely share kind of all the work we've done around this to help other people if it's something that they're considering as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Right. And sometimes you hear the word policy and you think, oh right, but it's basically just what are we going to do, how are we going to do it? And it's written down so that you don't everybody knows it's agreed, it's transparent and it's shareable, and then you don't have to think about it every time. You know exactly what's going to happen. Yeah, so some of this was about writing good, clear policies. Like you know, the how-to list, like policies and procedures are just your how-to list, and doing it in a really like clear writing kind of way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah yeah, and I will say just for transparency sake that, um, one of the things with with the honorariums is that if we settled on an amount, the amount we went with was, I believe, $155. And that was through some other organizations that are doing things like this and what other boards pay and that sort of thing, and it felt comfortable, like a comfortable amount to start out with and that if there are changes to that amount made in the future, it has to be voted on by the SAA membership. So it's not just, you know, the board that can decide to change the amount of the honorarium. It's something that the whole membership needs to come together and agree on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I think the other thing that's important too is that allows board members to give the honorarium back or just not accept the honorarium, and that accommodates or adapts to the fact that some people work in large organizations, maybe make enough money that they feel that they don't need the honorarium or that that's not how they want to live their lives, and so that they can, they have the freedom to make that choice, and so I thought that was really beautiful too, because that responds to the different kinds of people that also are in your membership and now on your board.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that really was. You know, that was something that we always wanted to include but, you know, once it was actually in practice, that was a really interesting spinoff for me, because what I didn't realize because I'm not an accountant was when those went back to the bookkeepers that we work with from the Admin Center for Sport, culture and Recreation Shout out Admin Center Yay, admin Center. That. Basically that when those honorariums are donated back to the SAA, that those count on our books as donations and so that increases our self-generated revenue, even though it's not an actual physical exchange of cash we get to. You know, it looks different on our books and that was something that I had never anticipated. So it's a good benefit, you know, benefit for us as an organization as well, even though there's no exchange of currency.
Speaker 2:And shout out to those people who support you.
Speaker 2:Right and I think that's another piece that underlies all of this work right and everything that we've done together in this whole phase in the SAA is finding ways to do less and more meaningful work right, and so having a good relationship with the admin center, where they look after things like this so you're not pulling your hair out or missing opportunities like that, I think, is really important because you're finding ways forward to make your own work less difficult and that's a model for other people if they choose to go there right.
Speaker 2:And other arts organizations or any other nonprofit that says, oh, what's happening in the admin center? Maybe we'll use the admin center right, Because the less time you spend doing things that aren't contributing to your real work, the more time you have to do your real work right, which is sometimes the equivalent of a bump in funding because you're just not wasting your time and resources on things that aren't that interesting so anyway, sorry, I kind of digressed, but I'm big on stuff like that. Right yeah, so great.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So that that was kind of the first phase and that was something that was that we wanted to do immediately and we felt that it was I hate the phrase, but it was low-hanging fruit that we could take care of right away and it was a change we could make fast saying you know, we've been doing this work I think we maybe started in the spring kind of thing and that was a change that we were able to implement almost immediately at the fall AGM. So that felt really good. I like a lot of the work I found at the SAA around advocacy and things. It moves really slow, so it felt nice to do something fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, but also sometimes it's kind of fun to laugh at low hanging fruit, but it's also it's moving at the speed of trust. If you say you're going to think about this and you talk to a bunch of people and ask them what they think it's important to do something to show them that you're actually responding to what they had to say. I don't think there's anything more discouraging than someone asking you for your time and your thought and your you know your consideration and then they go away and they do nothing. So parts of this work needed time and other parts were like, well, we can do this, let's do it. And I think it helped generate more trust in the process and more comfort actually at the board table and people were like, oh, wow, look, we're doing stuff. And oh, I got an honorarium, which is also good, but also your membership at the AGM got to see, oh, we're actually being invited to do something substantive, yeah, and make a significant change so I think it was great.
Speaker 2:I mean I, like, yeah, it's low-hanging fruit, but it's also like quite fruitful.
Speaker 3:Sorry, yeah, probably, yeah, fruitful yeah and then I think, uh, one of the other key uh actions that were identified in the report from our conversations was that our bylaws, policies, kind of anything, any documents any to do with governance, needed to be written in a simple, accessible, understandable way, accessible, understandable way. And then, you know, started to kind of go back and look at the essays, bylaws that were in place and it immediately became clear that a conversation needed to happen around those bylaws, for a couple of reasons. One, they were old, they were outdated, they were from 2003, which you know they hadn't been looked at in 20 years, which is, I totally understand. I understand a lot of times these policy and procedure things. They are easy to slip down to the bottom of your list.
Speaker 2:Well, and I mean in their defense, let me speak on behalf of those poor little old bylaws. They were great.
Speaker 2:Well they were really foundational. Whoever wrote them. It was art because, like bringing together an umbrella organization representing the entire sector was genius, and the way that it was written was very beautiful, Plus your bylaws. You're not meant to change them very often. They're meant to be like this is basically who we are. This is it no-transcript. I often found myself confused, oh yeah, and I wasn't always certain either what was going on. So it was almost like okay, let's take the time to figure out what really is foundational and stays the same and what needs to change, and then what needs to just be written better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah. And so then we about February 2023, we had a great board retreat in Saskatoon at the Ramey and spent some time together as a group, which was awesome because it was kind of one of the first times we were the whole board was together in person. We do all of our meetings throughout the year over Zoom, so just kind of having that in-person introduction and being in the same physical room together was really great, and we decided we were going to tackle updating these bylaws. But there was a lot of pre-work that was done kind of before that actual retreat weekend too.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and I'm going to mention Alejandro Romero again because by this time he was on the board and I don't think this is betraying a confidence. But he really encouraged us to look at anti-oppression approaches and indigenous approaches around governance and looking at new ways of shaping how you make decisions. And he was right. And when we think about what does it mean to be in a time of reconciliation? And how do you decolonize? Because that's an active word, it's an active verb, and how do we put that to work? And in my experience and in my way of being in the world, it's a boat relationship and it's a boat saying hmm, are we all equal partners here? And how can we have equal partners at the table? And how can we make sure that everybody feels included and involved? And rather than you know who's in charge and who's the executive, yeah, so that was kind of the spirit that we carried into that retreat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we did do quite a bit of work ahead of time, because you don't want to invite a bunch of people into a room and say here's 30 pages of boring reading. Can you do that Like we? You know, I took the time and we took the time to go through it, divide it up into the sections that needed changing, that needed discussion, and then ones that just needed up like needed new language. So we made it manageable. But I think what was exciting about being in the same room together was that people started to realize that they could change those bylaws. Yeah, and we started the conversation by asking everybody where were they in 2003? When the bylaws were written 20 years ago? What were people doing? Most people were still in high school or in their first jobs, and so it gave some context to oh, we're free, things are different and we can do something different.
Speaker 2:So I thought it was a really exciting time, and so do we want to talk a little bit about what came out of it, because I think, okay, so yeah, when you about it, like, it was really four hours where a lot of things turned around. So one of them was we realized, or the decision was made, that, you know, having a board chair or president and a treasurer and a secretary was really kind of not really you like, not really the SAA and not really relationship. Yeah, and what was more important was who was responsible for sharing information, not who was responsible for being in charge, but who was responsible for making sure everybody was learning what they needed to learn. So it was genius. So, instead of a president, you now have a board liaison, which is the same wonderful person, daniel, but that role was described in the bylaws as being someone who shares information from the executive director to the board and from the board back to the executive director.
Speaker 2:Yeah, main point of communication, because yeah, you don't want everybody to be on the email distribution list or everybody to be on Slack Like you do. It's to make it work better and to facilitate the relationship, right. Yeah, and so it made that job, and we went into a lot of detail of what that job exactly was. Yeah, that was also really beautiful, because I think one of the things we learned about being on a board is, unless it's clear what you're doing there, it's really annoying. Yeah, and it needs to be clear. What am I being like? I'm here at the table. I'm here with goodwill, I'm here with good intention. What do you need me to do? Yeah, and then to put it in the bylaws. I think was quite beautiful. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I do think that that was something kind of universal that we heard from the people we talked to who had been on boards. A lot of people didn't know what they were supposed to do, and I can you know, and that's true especially if you're new to a board or you're not. Yeah, If it's not laid out clearly, how do you know?
Speaker 2:You're guessing or you're making it up, and then you're making your own life complicated and other people's lives complicated, right, and it just becomes a very frustrating exercise. So we needed to make it clear so that people and not like tight right, so that people are ordered on, but make it clear why people are there and what these roles are meant to be. And the other big change that I thought was beautiful was, instead of having a treasurer because most of us don't really like talking about money or thinking about money and generally on boards you end up having one person who's got some background in money or is an accountant, and everyone goes, oh, they'll decide. Well, no, actually, if we're on a board, we're in this together, everybody has a voice, and so how can we make that possible?
Speaker 2:And so this brilliant decision came forward to have a financial liaison, so a person responsible for explaining what's happening financially, and to be a supportive person to the executive director and to be a supportive person to the other people on the board, so no one kind of clamps down and goes, oh I don't know, you know like, because that's how I would feel on a board, and to have a friend that's going to explain all that financial stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not that that one person's responsible, because you have an annual audit. Yeah, and I think the other thing that happened the bylaws was there were a couple a decision made about when financial changes need to come to the board so that you don't have to guess anymore and the board doesn't have to guess. So it reduced some of the guessing around finances, but it also made it a more supportive environment, because I think we heard when people don't join boards, it's because they don't know what their job is and they're afraid of like, oh, I won't understand the budget. Yeah, so we had to deal with that in a relationship based way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think the finance part of being on a board is sometimes for people you know, maybe one of the most intimidating or one of the most scary aspects about it, because you know technically there is a liability. It because you know technically there is a liability, and so I think you know, introducing kind of this financial liaison position and reframing it from a treasurer position where that you know it's more traditionally just the one person kind of carrying the weight and the burden of that, I think reframing that to be a more collective process, that kind of brings everybody along on a common understanding. It kind of demystifies it a bit but also eliminates or mitigates some risk.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, because that's the whole point of having a group of people around the table with different viewpoints is to have different voices that can say, hey, I see this, and that's how you manage risk and also see opportunities right. So making that conversation available for everybody I think was really significant. And people aren't wrong to be concerned about money. I mean, we're in the arts sector. Arts organizations have money issues and arts organizations have challenges and risks around finances and nonprofits have big risks and we see it. And so board members who are nervous about money aren't wrong, because there is a big responsibility to keep the organization going and keep it liquid and have the resources that you need. So I think this change isn't kind of a little dream world. It addresses the reality that you need to have a good financial plan as a board and any nonprofit yeah for sure yeah, the yeah.
Speaker 3:So then we? What were the other major changes? We have the intersectional representation.
Speaker 2:And then I think also the interest. That was a big one. And then I mean there's simple things too, like the decision, like we still have notes taken and we still have someone facilitate the board meeting, but that's not necessarily someone at the board table, right?
Speaker 2:Because those two things take up time and energy. So if it's someone on the board taking notes and someone on the board sharing the meeting, they're not actually participating in the conversation. So the board now has the freedom to invite or pay someone to come and do those two jobs. Yeah, they have to be done Like someone needs to do that, like you can't have. It's not a free for all. Yeah, but it doesn't have to be somebody who's a member of the board. And then the other major change that was so exciting was about the endeavor to intersectionality, and that's written in the bylaws. So that's written in the foundational documents of the SAA. Do you want to talk about how that happened?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that was probably one of the more in-depth and challenging conversations, I think, because there is a lot to a conversation like that and you know we were interested in articulating and capturing some way in the bylaws of talking about how we do want a diverse board, we want historically underrepresented folks at the table participating with us and we want to entrench that some way for the future, for the future of the organization to be able to say you know, this is something that is foundational to our values as an organization moving forward. And so we started talking about what does that look like without it tokenizing people?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Which is a huge problem, which is a huge problem, and that's one of the things we heard in the early conversations. Right, and asking people onto the board and then burdening them with responsibilities to speak on behalf of which is completely illegitimate yeah, anyway, but you're completely right about that. And then I'm going to tell you how it actually happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because one board member just started talking and I wrote down what he said and that's what turned into the bylaw. Yeah, because he had it so clear in his mind what needed to be in the bylaws and as he was talking, everybody was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So once we all realized, or once you all realized that that's what you wanted, and one member just started speaking the truth, then it was really easy. I was fascinated and when you look at the bylaw now that was passed in the AGM, it's almost word for word what that board member had to share. And there were some adjustments based on some words and some terms that the SA was using already, but not a lot of changes.
Speaker 3:I don't think I actually realized that, oh yeah absolutely Like it was.
Speaker 2:That change probably took 17 minutes yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's huge.
Speaker 2:And it's a huge change. Now there was all the work ahead of that yeah, to have the environment and whatever happened, so that that board member felt free to speak like that. But really it was 17 minutes that made a really foundational change. And I think the word endeavor like the term endeavor to intersectionality is beautiful, because the word endeavor is we're in this together. This is what it means to me. We're all in this together, we're making our best efforts, we're going to put energy into it too. It's not just work, yeah, and because goal can like, can come, sometimes create pressure, or endeavor to me seemed to be an active word about here's where we're headed, yeah, and it said we're going to endeavor to 50% intersectionality Again made it really clear what that means. And then I think what happened was you followed it up with coming up with just a practical policy of checking in once a year and saying, okay, who is on the?
Speaker 2:board. How are we doing with our endeavor to intersectionality and you can share how well you're doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're. I mean, you know we're basically we're meeting and exceeding our endeavor. So it's great. I think the previous year, the first that we kind of talked about this we were at, you know, 62% intersectional representation on the board and kind of how practically we're doing that and checking in about that is that we have a board member intake form online form, which I acknowledge may not suit everyone's needs, but we talk about that. And yeah, basically there's a voluntary self-declaration that board members can or, if they choose not to, they don't have to, but they can fill out to talk about if they identify with any of the areas that we want representation from on the board, and we can then take that information and use it to talk about who's on our board and to see if we're meeting this goal, this endeavor that we've set out. And yeah, I guess that might be a really good segue to talk about what happened at our 2023 AGM and kind of nominations process, because that was it was something I was not expecting.
Speaker 2:Okay, well then, I'm going to, I'm going to turn the table and now. I'm going to interview you. What happened with the 2023 AGM nominations process? Yeah, because you'd posted on your website a call for people to you know nominations and invited people to join the board.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like we had you know kind of as a board, maybe more traditionally does. We had you know people kind of that we had talked to, that were kind of lined up, that you know shoulder tapping essentially. Exactly who, who, who, yeah, who might come and join our little gang, right, yeah, who might join us? And we had people who were kind of, you know, agreeing in principle to put their names forward and that sort of thing, that those were the people that would come forward.
Speaker 2:And that's pretty normal. Yeah, you know most nonprofits and most nonprofit boards go out and recruit people to be on the board. Yeah, from shoulder tapping to arm twisting. Yeah, right, for real. Yeah, for real, because you're like, ah, please. Right, you're like, ah, please.
Speaker 3:Right, so it's a stressful position to be in. It's normally.
Speaker 2:Normally it is and that's sort of common practice for people to. You know people on the board to go and find other people to be on the board.
Speaker 3:So I just explained that background Right. Yeah, what kind of shockingly ended up happening is that we had quite a few more self nominations just from the form, just from the call out that we had put into the community, and we ended up with we. I was a little bit nervous because I thought we were going to have to have an election and I didn't want to have an elect. I mean, elections are great, let's have elections in in board, in board meetings and AGMs. I think that's, you know, that's a good thing.
Speaker 3:But it was just such a kind of shift from, you know, really kind of trying to get people to participate and engage to then having like a full board where we might have an election to like what are we doing? So, um, yeah, we had a really great group of people put their name forward who were enthusiastic about wanting to be on the SAA board and to be a part of what what's happening at the SAA, and so, yeah, we went from a board of eight people I think we had two people leave at the AGM and we're up to our full complement. We have 12 amazing board members Fantastic, yeah.
Speaker 2:Fantastic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's been, yeah, a real honor to have that, to have those people decide that's where they want to spend their valuable time.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and their energy and their artistic practice.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's been great and we're looking forward to another exciting board retreat.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's coming up soon, beginning of April, so yeah, I'm looking forward to that too, and seeing what happens in 17 minutes or longer Right, so yeah. I guess we'll see, and it is a beautiful thing to have people say I want to join your party, I want to come, I want to be part of this. Yeah, I think it's really exciting and a fully stocked board is a beautiful thing. Yeah, so yeah that's great.
Speaker 3:I think it'll serve the SAA well in the years to come. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And again fulfills what the SAA is all about, is speaking on behalf of artists and encouraging artists, and so having a full board of artists who can speak and who can share their views and their thoughts and their voices, I think is essential, yeah, yeah, really essential, so great, yeah. One of the things that I think is really important about this work and about the SAA is offering this experience to other nonprofits and other member organizations of the SAA. Eventually, what started like what's really important about this whole process is it's focused on doing less and more meaningful work, and I think every arts organization has a lot of work, yeah, and when you can focus on the most meaningful part of it and doing less of the not meaningful part of it is a huge relief. Like even the look on your face is like oh yeah. So it almost seems to me that this process was about the SAA, but it's also about the SAA membership, and what I want to make sure is that any SAA member, anybody in the arts organizations of Saskatchewan or nonprofits in Saskatchewan, if you want to understand a bit more about what we did and how we did it, how this process was based on relationship and responsiveness and listening and got the SAA to a point where they have a governance structure that actually embodies who they are and what they need to be accomplishing with the least amount of hassle and the least amount of boredom. We'd be happy to share it, and I think that's really, really important.
Speaker 2:I think for me it's been an honor and a privilege to work with the SAA and, like some of the most exciting work of my life, to be involved in this process, and if it just stops here, I think that would be kind of sad because I think there's a lot for other organizations to learn from. So we've toyed around having a toolkit or, you know, doing this podcast as part of sharing the story, but I think it's really important. If anybody listening or hearing about this work wants some help in getting started themselves, needs a little bit of guidance, please reach out to the SAA. Yeah, for sure, and I'm happy to help too. This kind of new way of looking at governance that's relational, that's not based on hierarchy, that's not based on old, outdated models that were copied from somebody else's world Just because it's the way it's always been done.
Speaker 2:That's, yeah, yeah, breaking down, yeah, breaking down the just the way it's always been done, is my idea of fun. So, yeah, we'd be really happy to help other organizations with this, and I don't know exactly what that looks like yet. But again, this whole process started because we were responsive to someone saying we want you to think about this, so let's put it back on your membership and say, hey, let us know what you need from us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there's some you know it's definitely not just the SAA, not just us doing this kind of work. There's really amazing people here in our own province that are doing some foundational work around this. We've got like AKA Artist Run Center, like amazing. You know, we can all definitely we'll put some links. There's some good written pieces about the changes they've made in their governance and working as a collective doing really great work. Yvette Nolan, who we invited there's a panel discussion that we held as a part of our spring gathering last year in May that talks about this and you know about some of the work it brings together Some. Aaron Kang from the Ontario Nonprofit Network the Ontario Nonprofit Network has a whole initiative called Reimagining Governance that we're kind of, you know, connected to them now through that, and so it's really a conversation that's bubbling up from many different places in our own province, outside of our province and we're just happy to is a huge piece of building the SAA's profile nationally.
Speaker 2:And all of that contributes to you being able to advocate for the membership and for the arts ecology in Saskatchewan, because now the Ontario Nonprofit Network is like oh who's? The Saskatchewan Arts Alliance, and that connects you with a whole new group of people. And so I think this work has implications much farther than Saskatchewan and much farther than just getting your own house in order and updating 20 year old bylaws. It's actually about, again, about new relationships and about building your ability to advocate at a national level and even at a provincial level. So, anyway, it's super exciting in lots of ways, and I'm sure we'll continue to see ways that this work is going to benefit the SAA and you, and maybe even me, going forward.
Speaker 1:Who knows?
Speaker 2:And I firmly believe that projects that benefit everyone involved are the way forward, and we live in a world where it's far too much about oh, what do I get Like, what's you know? Oh good, I got something and they didn't. And that'll never go away. I don't think that'll go away, but I think it's really exciting to be involved, um with you and with the membership and the board, in projects that are absolutely about what's best for everybody and best for your money and your effort and your time, but also our hearts and you like this. This is a project that's lightened people's hearts. Certainly it's lightened mine, and I think that's just good work and I think that's the work of good art.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree. Yeah, thanks for a great conversation.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Em. Thanks for inviting me in lots of ways.
Speaker 1:The next episode of Arts Everywhere is coming soon, so keep checking the Saskatchewan Arts Alliance website and their social media pages for more information and if you're listening to the podcast through your favorite podcasting app, don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you don't miss a single episode. The Arts Everywhere theme music is composed by Saskatchewan musician Patrick Moon Bird, dancing to lo-fi from his album entitled 2021. Check out the show notes for links to Patrick's music. The Saskatchewan Arts Alliance would like to thank our funders, Sask Culture and Sask Arts, both of whom benefit from lottery ticket sales through Sask Lotteries Proceeds from Sask Lotteries fund cultural organizations all across the province, and we wouldn't be able to do the work we do without your support. See you next time.
